i surrender, i give over, i submit
August 7, 2008
Jo asked an interesting question today about how members of The Poetry Collaborative decide where to submit their work. I have a process that is probably a little bit different from that others employ, so I figured why not detail my process here.
(Keep in mind that I’ve sent batches of poems out to publishers exactly twice since I started writing again, with the occasional additional submission only when an editor requested that I send work to his or her journal or when it’s Qarrtsiluni, whose issue themes are irresistible. So I am probably not one to look to for advice on the hows and whys of submissions, but that won’t stop me from talking about it. Here goes.)
My approach is multi-pronged. First, I’ve decided to focus on online publications for several reasons. One is that they provide much more exposure than print publications. I used to volunteer for New Letters, a competitive, established and highly regarded literary journal. Yet after every issue, scads of copies were returned to the house that served as the journal’s office. Those issues sat in bookcases lining the walls of that house, which made an impression on me. Despite its decent print run, many of those journal copies were not seen by anyone.*
This brings me to the issue of waste. I read once that, at any given moment, more unsold books are in transit from bookstores back to publishers’ warehouses than on bookstore shelves. A recent NPR program on the publishing industry’s inefficiency and waste under its current model is certainly worth a listen. I was struck by what Jed Lyons, president and CEO of Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group and president of the National Book Network, had to say about traditional publishing:
Sometimes I think the only people making money in the book business these days are the truckers who are picking up the books as they go out and picking up the books and taking them back.
I know what you’re thinking: Small publishers like literary journals aren’t the same as huge publishing houses that ship thousands and thousands (and thousands and thousands) of titles out to bookstores. With print runs from about 500 to 1,500 copies per issue, print literary journals are a tiny part of the overall publishing problem. (I think that circulation range is about right, but it’s hard to tell because many print journals don’t note their circulation on their websites).
But still. They are part of the problem, and I have made a personal decision to shy away from seeing my name “in print,” both because of the limited exposure and shelf life of print journals and because I believe publishing should move away from the traditional model to models like Lulu, which creates books on demand, so there’s little waste in terms of resources and materials. (Some small presses are already moving to this model, like No Tell Books, which uses Lulu to print its titles once they have been chosen for publication.)
(This does not mean I won’t submit to a print journal if my work is solicited. Hell no. I’m not stupid. And I am not trying to vilify print journals, either. I am just saying that, by and large, print publishing is not for me.)
The Lulu model doesn’t mean all books must be self-published. Books and journals that are now published traditionally could move to an on-demand model, a shift that would allow publishers to play the role of editor and to brand their titles while keeping costs down and producing publications in a way that is more sustainable and responsible.
I was talking with a marketing manager at a small literary press not too long ago, and he predicts that many small publishers will be forced to move to an on-demand model, especially those publishing poetry. Most poetry books don’t sell enough copies to cover the expense of producing them, hence the reliance on contests to cover publishing costs.
So, in short, my first approach to sending work out is to focus on online journals so I can enjoy greater exposure, including having my work archived and thus accessible even once the issue in which I was featured is no longer the current issue; because I believe online publishing is less wasteful and inefficient than print publishing under its current model; and because I want to support what I think is the future of publishing, which is online and on-demand.
Second, I select online journals that look good. I hate reading ugly print journals, so why would I settle for ugly online journals? I am a design snob. Sue me. I go for pretty because I believe writing deserves to be handled like art, since it is in fact art. When someone like me can make a rockin’ personal site, there’s no excuse for an online journal to look crappy.
Third, I go for interesting titles. Why? Because interesting titles entertain me. Why wouldn’t they? Anemone Sidecar. Mustachioed. Origami Condom. (Just look at how many downloads OC gets per issue). Robot Communism.
Even without having read some of these journals (yet), I know I want to be in them. Are they new or established? I don’t care. Are they extremely competitive or do they accept a higher percentage of submitted work? Pfft. I just want in, plain and simple. A little research might reveal the fact that some of these journals wouldn’t want work like mine, but I’ll tell you what: I have a better chance of getting into a journal with a spunky or in-your-face name than I do of getting into a journal with a name like The Swallow’s Tail.
Fourth, I try to support new online journals. I know it’s hard to start up a journal. A massive and valiant undertaking, really. I respect those who go to the trouble to start a journal, so I want to support those efforts in any way possible.
Fifth, I look at the poets I like and where they’ve published. I trust those poets’ judgment and figure I might also have a shot with those journals. So far, that approach seems to be paying off.
Sixth, I don’t like the stranglehold print publishing has on us all. Online journals are gaining on print journals, giving print journals a run for their money. And my money is on the online journals, in part because I like to give the finger to anything too established or mainstream.
(I’m also a little sour because, when I was a student at UMKC in the mid-1990s, I told the staff adviser, who happened to be an editor at New Letters, that I thought we should produce an online version of the student literary journal. I was all stoked about the idea and had given it a lot of thought. But he totally shot me down, looking at me as if I’d said something so nonsensical he couldn’t begin to process it. Seems like I was ahead of my time. I feel like that interaction with the staff adviser is, unfortunately, emblematic of how print publication staff view online publishing. Many have a “what the fcuk” attitude toward it, even now. Sigh.)
Seventh (and finally), I submit where people tell me to submit because I always do what I am told. I am a compliant little beastie.
* * *
So that’s my approach. I am sure people will want to discuss this further and/or take issue with what I’ve said. Feel free to do so. You know where the comment box is. (And no, I don’t normally bleg like this, but I do think this topic merits a conversation, perhaps even a heated debate.)
* * *
* Update: Out of curiosity, I contacted New Letters to see if copies of the publication are still being returned. They said that the system of returned copies no longer exists, bookstore management is much more precise these days and the publication’s circulation is now heavily subscription-based.
Comments
30 Responses to “i surrender, i give over, i submit”
Got something to say, toughguy?
This is my blog wherein I, Dana Guthrie Martin, write things and stuff. Most of the time, writing and I hobble along in a sort of three-legged race where there is no finish line. (more...)
In the open form, the poem is about the impulse and the discipline to feel that impulse out. — Sam Hamill
-
beg, borrow, but don't steal
This work is licensed under Creative Commons. If you don’t credit Dana (by using her full name and preferably by linking back to the appropriate post) for however you copy, distribute, transmit or adapt her words, you are being bad. And naughty. And she will have her servant monkeys hunt you down and cut your hands off so you can never copy, distribute, transmit or adapt anyone’s work again and call it your own.
(Unless, of course, you were to use your butt cheeks to manipulate your keyboard with the copying, distributing, transmitting, adapting and whatnot, but Dana fortunately has only met one person whose butt cheeks are that talented. He could play a major third on a piano using nothing but his ass. She kids you not.).
-
flick, flick, flick
-
i cannot be bought
Mmmm, interesting…….I worked in publishing for years, so I’m with you and not with you. I totally agree about the online business, I think it is the future of lit publishing (more online mags need to get advertising though……I hear you spit and hiss……..but maybe then they’d be able to pay, imagine that?), especially the on demand angle, frankly I can’t believe there are any small presses that don’t go that route, they’d be crazy to do it any other way…….but I digress, much as I say yay to all this, I don’t get the same satisfaction from reading on screen that I do from reading in a chair, holding paper between my hands (yes, yes, I know all the environmental arguments), for me that is almost mystical, and I don’t see that online reading (I have bad eyes so have glare issues, get headaches, etc) will ever for me feel like printed……but that’s my foible.
I am doing 50/50, print/online submissions (and you would not believe the snooty attitude expressed towards online mags, I’ve read time and again, don’t bother mentioning you’ve been in them, they have no cache……..think of the company you keep in qarrt……yep, they’re idiots……..
and you’re right, the design is fundamental. I love the look of blossombones, qarrtsiluni, canopic jar and others, though I’ve seen some that make me want to go blech.
Right, I need to go see to my kids. Cool post, thanks you……..we’re almost in accord *grin*.
I just reread this, to clarify, when I say think of the company you keep in qarrt, that is me Jo speaking to you dana guthrie martin funnelcake, not some dumbass fictional editor speaking to me………oi.
Interesting post, Dana, and very generous of you too, revealing how you are going about making your inner concepts unfold. So many people hoard.
I’ve been sticking mostly to online because I’m a noob in the publishing arena. I’ve only had stuff published online. and the sites aren’t too quirky or slick. It’s a great point you make about the name of the journal, and the design.
The idea of print-on-demand is great. I got an email recently from a blogger whom I had only visited once, asking me to buy her chapbook, because if she didn’t get at least fifty orders the book wouldn’t be published. So print-on-demand seems like a decent option, like Mipoesias. And now they are expanding.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the whole question of what is mine versus what is yours, because of our conversations about co-po. Maybe I’ll post my thoughts as a response.
“I don’t get the same satisfaction from reading on screen that I do from reading in a chair, holding paper between my hands (yes, yes, I know all the environmental arguments), for me that is almost mystical, and I don’t see that online reading (I have bad eyes so have glare issues, get headaches, etc) will ever for me feel like printed……but that’s my foible.”
Totally totally good point, Jo. But I am not saying print pubs should be eradicated. When I say the future is online and on-demand, by the latter I mean on-demand printed publications. You can certainly hold an on-demand printed book or journal in your hands, and those publications can be quite fabulous ~ as pretty as any traditionally published piece. Plus, some online journals offer their issues as PDFs, so you could always print them out and read them wherever.
Christine, yeah. I prefer to not hoard. I am coming from my position of a politics of abundance ~ that there is not a dearth of ideas, approaches or material and that the more generous one is with one’s work, time and ideas, the more that generosity will pay off in some way, even if the only way is knowing you’ve been generous.
I mean, look at all Dave Bonta does for poetry and the poetry community. OK, not just poetry, writing in general. He’s so generous it makes us all look like misers by comparison.
When you say what’s yours vs. what’s mine, do you mean in a general way or in the specific sense of literally mine and yours? I look forward to reading your post. (And *do* post about it.) I like that The Poetry Collaborative is making us all think in new ways about “our” work. As in, what is ours collectively, what is ours individually, and how that all might translate to a larger sense of what we are doing with our personal and collective writing.
I tend to agree with everything you say about online, and I’m sure we’ll see more and more of it, but I still have vague hopes of publishing a book one day, so I do tend to consider which publications will help build my reputation. That doesn’t rule out online publications, but it does tend to affect which online publications I might consider. The poetry scene in New Zealand is much smaller and less diverse than the US of course, and I’m not really at the stage of submitting to any non-local magazines yet. (Though our local magazines do tend to publish overseas work as well, so I guess it also works in reverse).
As for print publications going “on demand”, that is pretty much what we do at Takahe.
What happens is that when the issue is ready to go to print, I check the database, count up the number of subscribers, number of contributors x2 (they get two free copies), free copies to staff etc, a few for a very limited number of bookshops that stock the mag (and mostly don’t return any), then add a small allowance for late orders (eg some contributors thrilled to see themselves in print for the first time have been known to order 10 - 20 copies for family and friends). We can’t afford to have lots of unsold copies. I’m happy if I don’t have more than ten left over by the time the next one comes around, though I could probably scratch up a copy of most back issues if required.
Catherine, see? That’s a good model. I actually hope I am wrong about other print journals and about New Letters in particular. I hope someone from New Letters leaves a comment here telling me that I am full of shit and that my use of the word “scads” is a gross overestimate of the number of issues lining their office walls.
Maybe all journals employ the model you described for Takahe. But even so, my overriding concern about traditional publishing in general would still stand, as would my visibility argument. And my flipping the bird to the establishment argument.
Why not submit to journals outside of New Zealand? Hmm?
I’d probably be more likely to submit to journals outside NZ, if I had a better knowledge of which ones were worth submitting to. Basically, I know I can get published in Takahe (which encourages new writers) and in our local newspapers, so my aim is for ones a little more out of my reach, but not so far out of my reach I can’t get there if I stretch a little. I have a pretty good grasp of the range of magazines in NZ, but not so much outside NZ, apart from the very wellknown ones (hence likely to be out of my reach at the moment). I am collecting submission guidelines in a folder, and do have a couple of Australian mags in there, including an online one (Snorkel).
Actually unless I get off my butt and actually send some submissions , it’s all academic. It becomes more a question of which magazines I’m not submitting to (but might), rather than which I’m submitting to.
My one reservation about online journals is that it contributes to the expectation of the wider public that they can get something for free. Lawyers, accountants, bus drivers, journalists work for money. Poets are expected not to. Here anyway, most print journals pay - a token, maybe, but they pay. Most online journals don’t.
I’m quite sure I’m not doing nearly enough for the cause, but I’m glad you think so. Needless to say I agree with most if not all your thinking about online vs. print. But I think that print journals will remain a bit more prestigious than online for a while to come just because the barrier for entry is so much higher. I mean, it costs so little to put up a decent-looking online magazine now, especially with blog platforms tailor-made for periodical publishing. Anyone can do it; you don’t need grants or paying subscribers or institutional support. Eventually we may reach a point where there are enough magazines to publish everyone who wants to be published, and then OMG! What happens to their so-so-vital gatekeeper function?
edit: oh-so-vital
Catherine, there is a wonderful book called Poetry Writers Yearbook 2008 (and previous years) which has fabulous info on where to submit, useful web addresses, snail addys, etc. Plus lists most UK indie publishers….if you wanted to get published over here, we have a strong poetry scene, then I’d see if you could pick up a copy from amazon.
Jo, I would think our library has a copy, when I’m ready for it. I have thought of trying Scottish magazines, since quite a lot of my poetry is strongly influenced by my research into my Scottish forbears.
Don’t forget about Duotrope’s Digest - I think that’s the most up-to-date source for online publishers, and I like the way writers are encouraged to report their own results.
My one reservation about online journals is that it contributes to the expectation of the wider public that they can get something for free. Lawyers, accountants, bus drivers, journalists work for money. Poets are expected not to. Here anyway, most print journals pay - a token, maybe, but they pay. Most online journals don’t.
Catherine, good point. A lot of publications in the U.S. don’t pay, except in copies of the issue. I remember either you or Kay saying that your newspapers even pay for poetry they publish. I think NZ has a different attitude toward poets and their writing, at least where compensation is concerned.
And what about publishers of poetry in New Zealand? Are they mostly driven by contests where the poets have to pay to enter those contests and have their work read?
Dave, good point about the barrier for entry.
Also, with so many writers wanting to get published, I was surprised when someone told me last fall that some of the new online journals are having trouble getting submissions, or at least decent submissions.
Given the fact that many journals only accept 1% or 2% of the work submitted and the fact that so many writers want to see their work in journals, I would have thought that new journals would be overrun by submissions and have a lot of good material from which to choose.
I don’t know if what that person told me is accurate, but I am kind of interested in whether it is and, if so, why that would be the case.
I have never had much luck in submitting to any sort of journal, so I quit doing it all together. I’ve been trying to get back into it, though. I was recently accepted by Mind Sprocket, but not for online - they used me in their book.
I agree about the waste of the publishing industry, but at the same time I have a passionate love affair with the written word on the page. I want to rub it all over myself. Sigh. Computer screens do NOT feel the same against my skin. (I’m nearly completely kidding)
I need to read other comments before saying much else.
Dana, that whole contest thing for manuscripts doesn’t seem to happen here at all. We have pay for entry contests, but that is for choosing a single prize winning poem, for instance Takahe runs one every two years. The winning poem would then be published in the magazine. The entry fees ($5 a poem) do boost our funds somewhat.
To get a book published, you just submit a manuscript in the normal way without paying (it doesn’t make it easier to get it published, though!) The two big publishers of poetry are Victoria University Press and Auckland University Press, I suspect they strongly favour their own graduates especially since they both have creative writing schools.
Oh yes, our local newspaper pays for poetry by way of a $20 book voucher (which doesn’t go nearly so far as it would in the US). This was sponsored by a local bookshop which has closed down, so I’m not sure what the current situation is.
Takahe pays currently $30 per poet. Whether you have one poem published or more, you get the same. This can vary a little depending on how flush we are.
Most literary magazines here I suspect are heavily dependent on grants, the ones that aren’t can be quite expensive to buy. There are also some connected to the universities which probably come under the overall budget of the English departments there.
Slynne, congrats on the Mind Sprocket acceptance! Way to go.
Now off with you! You have publications to rub all over yourself!
Catherine, thank you again for the gift you sent. You made my little heart soar and then soar some more.
I do not know about others but I write poetry as compulsion or therapy. I do it because if i would not I will be miserable.
I do believe however that if I do write I should do at least a decent job at it. So I am working on improving my writing.
Getting paid? Maybe at a point I’ll make some pennies. Making a living out of it? Not really.
I have three children and I had not found yet the man that will pay my bills and do not try to control my life so I got to pay them on my own. I am getting an MBA, I will be starting the second semester soon.
Plus I am to proud and lazy to ask anyone to buy my chapbook.
As for on-line journals, I am 100% for them. It is one of the first things you learn in marketing: if you are able to market a product in its digital form you should market it on-line. It is cheaper and you can reach a wider market. There are the copyright issues of course, but that is another discussion.
I agree with you exactly on the advantages of online journals. Print on demand is definitely the way to go for poetry collections, i know at least one Scottish publisher who does that. Also most of the paper journals I know base their print run on the number of subscribers. I submit equally to online and paper journals, i have a few outlets where I know I have a decent chance of getting accepted (even a couple that have never rejected me) then i try to widen my net every so often, though I’m nowhere near prolific enough really, to get loads of work out there. As for online publications not getting enough submissions, it probably depends on how you advertise, Bolts of Silk which i edit, has never been short of good submissions, though also I’ve never been so overwhelmed with submissions that I’ve had to take a week off work to deal with it or anything!
Annamari, the copyright issue you bring up is interesting. I wonder how others feel about that.
Online journals copyright their work just as print journals do, but you are correct in alluding to the fact that some people treat the internet as if it were the wild west, where anything can be lifted without consequence. Still, people could steal content from a printed journal as well.
Crafty Green Poet, how do you get the word out about your journal and ensure you get plenty of quality submissions?
the copyright issue is also of legal nature from what I understand.There are countries that have no laws for on-line content as they have for hardcopies. Where there are laws there are many gaps and many issues related to the real capture and punishement of perpetrators.
The main concern is ,of course, for music and movies because we do have to admit it there is where the money goes. But sould we connect copyright protection with financial benefits only?
Hi Dana, how do I get word out about Bolts of Silk? I did a lot of publicity at the beginning, both online (its listed on Poetry Superhighway and other places, too many to remember). I also publicised it via the Scottish Poetry Library, via poets i know in real life and via blogging and then at events too. Right at the beginning, I actually invited poets I knew to submit, to give it a kick start, but i don’t do that any more. The editor of Poetry Scotland has recommended it to people as a place to send poetry. Now I’ve really got out of the habit of doing much publicity, the poetry keeps coming in and there are new poets sending me work all the time - some find me via blog links, some via online listings etc As I said in my last comment, I’m not drowning in a sea of wonderful poetry but I certainly have a good selection to choose from and generally have the next month or so planned out already, though as I like poems to be seasonal and also like there to be some sort of connection between each poem and the next, i am flexible and can change the order of poems, so if someone sends me a poem that fits in just exactly between the last poem and the planned next one, then the new poem can be posted that very day!
Annamari, you bring up an interesting point about some countries thaving no laws for online content. I hadn’t thought about that, but of course it makes sense.
Crafty Green Poet, that’s fantastic that the editor of Poetry Scotland is recommending Bolts of Silk as a place for people to send their work.
Thanks for your other comments about how you get the word out. It’s something I am personally interested in, mostly because I am nosy and want to know stuff, and partly because I entertain the idea from time to time of starting an online journal.
hi dana,
thanks for starting this very interesting exchange of ideas. i’ve never submitted anything, mostly because i’m lazy and also because when i started writing poetry a year ago, it was mainly for my own sanity. and then i discovered poetry thursday and started posting poems in my blog and well, that’s where i am now.
Odessa, it *is* an interesting exchange of ideas, isn’t it? None of the interesting idea are mine, either. But that’s cool. I like being surrounded by people who have more interesting ideas than I have.